Episode 2

[00:00:00] Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to Behind the Design from Yaletown to Andmar. This new podcast is going to follow the journey of the new development, Andmar, inspired by Vancouver’s Yaletown’s history. Andmar blends sustainability, innovation, and luxury. We have so many conversations about how a development like Andmar gets built, what is lease land, and what is it going to be like to live in this thriving community. So let’s get started. 

[00:00:28] Welcome back to Behind the Design, Andmar to Yaletown podcast. I’m Jennifer-Lee. I’m joined by Tracey again, and we have another guest that is a big part of this Andmar development, and that is Chief Derek Epp of the Tzeachten First Nations. So welcome, Derek. Thank you for coming on and hi again, Tracey. 

[00:00:50] Tracey Klaver: Hi, Jen. Thanks for having us. 

[00:00:52] Derek Epp: Yeah. Hi, Jen. Really appreciate you having us and looking forward to it. 

[00:00:55] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and we’re talking about a topic that I don’t feel like a lot of us know about, myself included, until I started researching more, and it has been something we’re hearing more and more about on the news, but lease land. And Andmar is on lease land. And so I wanted to get into this conversation to kind of get rid of those misconceptions that people may have. But before we get into that, let’s talk about you, Chief Derek. Who are you? Give us a little bit about yourself. 

[00:01:25] Derek Epp: Yeah, no, thanks, Jen. Uh, yeah, as Jen said, Chief Derek Epp of Tzeachten First Nation. I’ve been Chief now, I’m coming up in my ninth year pretty quick, which is pretty crazy to think about. Um, I’ve been along for a lot of the kind of progressive development that Tzeachten has taken on over the last decade or so. And really, a lot of that has been in partnership and working alongside individuals like Tracey, the Andmar crew. Um, and they’ve done a lot of our developments on Tzeachten over the years. So, um, it’s really exciting to see this project almost culminate like our relationship over the last, what, it’s really been like twenty years of working with, uh, the Andmar crew, including Tracey and Mark and Andrew and, and really, uh, you know, seeing now this ten acre development on Andmar is, uh, really, it’s going to be a staple of what we’re kind of coining is the Sardis central, this, this area of Chilliwack, Sardis area, that is really becoming one of the most sought after neighbourhoods in, in Chilliwack.

[00:02:23] And it’s a relationship that’s, that we, we’ve built over time and something that’s really exciting. So a lot of my role in Chief is really ensuring that we’re looking at, planning for something we call. Which is, um, the seven generations ahead of us and making sure we’re taking that historical knowledge that, that, um, that input from our ancestors from seven generations before us and using that to help guide us and making decisions and planning for the next seven generations. And a lot of that is stapled in, um, economic development. And building our own economy and sustainable revenues to ensure we can be self sufficient and self determining. So, this is all part of it. 

[00:03:02] Jennifer-Lee: And the big question is, and you probably each have your own story about it. So, we’ll toss it over to Tracey first. How did you meet, uh, Chief Derek? Tell us your version first and then I’ll get him to tell his. 

[00:03:15] Tracey Klaver: Um, well, I think that was a long time ago. Uh, Derek, you were on site. 

[00:03:20] Derek Epp: I was. 

[00:03:21] Tracey Klaver: You were still, you were, you were going to UBC though. 

[00:03:23] Derek Epp: Yeah, I was still in university. 

[00:03:24] Tracey Klaver: You were in university and you came with a group and you did a walkthrough of Englewood Courtyard. And who knew that you were going to be the future Chief? I don’t even think that you knew at that time. That wasn’t really in your forecasted future, was it? 

[00:03:42] Derek Epp: Nope, not at all. I was working in the development in Englewood, uh, as working with one of the develop, uh, the developers in there and, uh, finishing up university and, and, uh, I got to meet Tracey, Mark and Andrew. It probably is like twenty years ago now, uh, which is crazy to think about. So I started as just working in the development and working in my community as a labourer mostly and, and while I was in university and yeah, Tracey’s right. I did not even have an inkling at that time that I thought I would be Chief, um, especially now for almost nine years, which is pretty crazy to think about.

[00:04:15] Jennifer-Lee: Uh, did she get that correct then? Chief Derek? 

[00:04:18] Derek Epp: She did. And my grandma lived in the development or lives in the development still as well. Yeah, Georgina. So I, I have a lot of roots in there and it’s funny. I used to have extended lunches and Mark and everybody knew that when I went to have lunch with grandma in the, in the development, they knew I was there for like an hour and a half or two hours. So I get these extra long lunches just because my grandma lives in there. Um, and now I, you know, fast forward now being the Chief, I think I could just tell him I’m taking a long lunch and it doesn’t matter. 

[00:04:49] Jennifer-Lee: Now you don’t need an excuse. 

[00:04:50] Derek Epp: No, right? I don’t need their permission anymore. Yeah. 

[00:04:54] Jennifer-Lee: I love what you said about the seven generations principle. Can you explain that a little bit more and how Andmar kind of fits into that? 

[00:05:01] Derek Epp: Yeah, it’s a really, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a word that means, means a lot to us. Right. So it really is about ensuring that, you know, we don’t forget about what our ancestors went through, what are our grandparents, great grandparents all went through and what the sacrifices they made to ensure that we had, uh, that I was able to step into this position as Chief and carry on a lot of the progress that the individuals who came before me laid the groundwork for. And it’s really about ensuring that we’re utilizing the assets that we have and being real and transparent, is that through the Indian Act and the colonization process, First Nations were put in, in boxes to, you know, ideally not succeed. And, you know, for individuals like myself in Tzeachten, we’ve been able to, in the face of a lot of challenges, succeed.

[00:05:52] And it’s, it’s now it’s about planning for those next seven generations and using the assets and the resources, the land base that we have to plan the best we can to utilize the resources, the highest and best use. So that we have the sustainable revenue streams, the, the developments that meet our memberships vision. Um, and then we’re capitalizing on some of those revenue streams and being able to invest in our current needs and plan for our future members needs through, you know, it can be acquiring land, building, building homes for members, building public infrastructure, whether that be our, our community hall or administration building or sports fields.

[00:06:34] Uh, you know, we have exciting things on the go, looking at whether it’s, you know, public schools, public rec sites, whatever it may be. So it’s, it’s a lot of, uh, you know, now we’re in a position that we can do that. And the reason we can do that is because of developments like Andmar that are successful, that are providing that sustainable revenue stream through, uh, taxation and partnerships with individuals like the Andmar team, uh, that bring in, in wealth. Like, let’s be real, that’s a lot of what, uh, what, you know, First Nations have gone without for years, have managed poverty for years and, and, and generations. And now we’re in a position that we can begin to, to manage wealth and, and be able to, uh, continue to meet the evolving needs of our, our members today and in the seven generations ahead of us.

[00:07:17] Jennifer-Lee: That’s really lovely. I love that idea of seven generations. And how does someone, like, if they want to develop land with you, like, how did they approach the band? Do they just say, hey, we want, we want to bring a development? Like, what is the process? Uh, do you seek them out? Like who, who makes the first move?

[00:07:35] Derek Epp: So it’s a mix. Like it depends if a lot of our land is owned by individual band members or individual members of Tzeachten. So if that member is looking to develop their land, then typically that’s an independent process that they take on. They go out and canvas developers or whoever they may want to work with. And you know, the Andmar team or the Canadian retirement development team has done a lot of developments with our individual band members. And we’ve still partnered on some of those developments with Tracey and the team. Uh, but this one is actually the first one that’s been on actual band owned land.

[00:08:09] So Tzeachten owned land. So what we do when we look to lease out or partner on land that we own individually, a lot of the time we like to partner. Um, sometimes we like to own the assets depending on the risk that we want to take in on the development. Uh, but for this one in particular, we go to an RFP like, you know, like any government may do. We go to an RFP, we have to get a minimum of three, three quotes or three bids in and we vet those and determine who we would want to work with. And at the end of the day, uh, the Andmar team came with what we felt was the best proposal, the best vision. And, and a lot of the trust that we had, uh, with the team to make sure that they were, um, living out some of the promises they made to us.

[00:08:50] And, and a lot of that is that trust, you know, we’ve got a lot of experience with working with a lot of developers. Um, but I think what really, uh, one of the things that sets this team apart is I don’t need to put stuff in a legal document for what they say to ensure that they’re going to stand behind it. A lot of what we do is, uh, informal meetings, we talk about what we want to see from this development and what the developer wants to see and, and, and they execute. I mean, of course, stuff has to be legally done in a lot of aspects, but I’ve never had a situation where Tracey, Mark, Andrew, and the team have said, you know what, it’s not in a legal document, so we’re not going to do it, even though we talked about it.

[00:09:28] And I think that’s something that is so important to working with First Nations is ensuring that, um, they stand by their word and what they say and, and, uh. I can say Tracey, the team have always stood by their word and what they’ve said. And that’s something that’s gone a long way and why we’ve, uh, trusted in them to, to take on this really integral part of the development on Tzeachten.

[00:09:50] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. And I love this development. I, Tracey, we didn’t really explain it last time, but can you explain the future of Andmar, like how many buildings is it going to be when it’s completed? What are some of the type of stuff that’s going to be there? Give us the full picture. Walk us through Andmar. 

[00:10:07] Tracey Klaver: Well, what we have is a comprehensive development with commercial, retail and residential. So, um, we’ve now, um, we’ve got ten acres that we’re developing. Uh, we’ve got a total of eleven buildings. Um, and, uh, let’s see, five of them are strictly residential and the rest are mixed use. Um, so our first building is under construction. Uh, we have our Nature’s Fair organic grocery store as our anchor tenant, uh, and we have, um, a credit union, and we’re going to be putting our sales office in there. Um, and then, so there’s two towers above that, so that’s our first building, uh, ninety-six units that are on sale right now, uh, for pre sale, and they’re going to be ready next year, so already just around the corner, um, completion will be May, June 2026.

[00:11:00] Um, we also have, uh, been vetting different, um, restaurateur. So major restaurant that we want to put on the corner of, um, Promontory and Thomas road. So it’ll be high exposure, uh, up to about five thousand square feet for a beautiful restaurant with a big patio. Um, I think that’s going to be a major hit in Chilliwack. I think we’re all waiting for something really awesome in the restaurant world. Um, and then there’ll be room for, there’s CRUs in there and forty-eight units above it. Um, and we’re already starting the, um, the, uh, the construction, the plans and everything in the works for, we’ve got a major daycare. So we have, uh, Willowbrae, uh, daycare that’s taken up, uh, twenty thousand square feet of the top two floors of one of our buildings with a ten thousand square foot rooftop patio.

[00:11:52] And so they’re going to be operating, um, out of there, uh, probably at about three hundred student capacity. And our Andmar owners will have dibs on the first one hundred applicants for that daycare. So I think between the two schools, we’ve got, you know, an elementary, Vedder elementary school on the one side, GW Graham middle school on the other side. Tons of residential community in that area. So I think it’s a major shoe in to have a national daycare. That’s going to be wonderful for the community. Um, as well as we’re going to be, um, we’re designing right now two more residential, strictly residential buildings that will be our age forty-five plus. So that’s going to continue on our Canadian retirement development.

[00:12:40] So, uh, we’ve just finished off Skynest, um, up the street, which is forty-five, uh, age forty-five plus, which is a beautiful development. Another partnership that we did with the Tzeachten band, and it’s, I think, a real feather in both of our caps. It’s a prominent corner. It’s beautiful luxury condos. So we’re going to see, you know, moving into Andmar, we’re going to have something for those, you know, empty nesters to go as well. And we thought having strictly residential buildings instead of the mix might be the better fit for that age group. But they can still be within the hub of the community, right? So, um, very exciting. We’re going to have a community building in there as well, that will probably host a gym and, um, you know, some sort of a juice bar, coffee shop.

[00:13:26] Um, we’d like to bring in local, um, artisans to display some art, um, breweries, you know, more restaurants, bistros, that kind of a thing, retail. So, um, it’s, it’s a community within a community. It’s just, uh, you know, I think it’s just the opportunity to create something, um, pretty incredible. Um, you know, we all say, oh yeah, small town Chilliwack, but you know, we’re no longer small town anymore, are we? And, you know, so we, we do have to plan big. We need to plan for the future. Um, we want to be cutting edge. We want to be sustainable. Um, you know, we want to be able to attract, um, people from larger areas and they can move into a beautiful place like Chilliwack and feel right at home, um, in our, nestled in our nice little community.

[00:14:19] Jennifer-Lee: And you can, like, live there from different stages in your life. It sounds like you can like start off young and grow old, which is nice. And that’s the thing is a community thrives when it’s all different ages pitching in. And I think we’re realizing that more and more that we need to start building communities where we respect the elderly and have everyone as a big part of our lives. So I’m really excited you guys are doing that. 

[00:14:38] Tracey Klaver: Yeah. I think it used to be Chilliwack was known as a retirement community, right? Remember, you know, and that’s what we started. Like Mark started his development in retirement communities. And I think he really modeled them from, you know, the Palm Springs slash, you know, Arizona snowbird, right? Gated communities where Derek’s grandmother Georgina lives. It’s a gated rancher community, right? So, you know, it’s low maintenance on the house. Um, it has that social aspect. It’s gated and safe. Um, you know, so it’s, uh, it really resembles that lifestyle that, you know, it was really appealing to a lot of Canadians moving, um, or having half time homes in, in Palm Springs or Arizona. So, I think that’s, uh, we’ve, we’ve really taken that idea and ran with it. And now, of course, we’re doing more than just, uh, retirement communities. We’re, we’re doing all ages. 

[00:15:32] Jennifer-Lee: Great. And Chief Derek, as the leaser of this land, uh, do you get to veto or have any input of what type of businesses they put? I’m just curious because, you know, like, I’m just wondering, do you guys get to say what goes in there? What kind of your vision is or what it needs to be included in the development? 

[00:15:51] Derek Epp: No, like not necessarily. Of course, like they’re, you know, if they decide to put in an extreme business that nobody agrees with and maybe, yeah, we might step in. But no, I mean, in, in all seriousness, no, like for the most part, yeah, like, well, we’ve met and chatted about like potential tenants or, you know, what may be coming and, uh, but, uh, we got full trust in that team to, to do, they’re the professionals who can, who know the market, right.

[00:16:16] Uh, because really what we’re looking for is what exactly what Tracey’s talking about. Is that balanced commercial space in there that we really need in Chilliwack. And they understand the market much better than we do. And knowing that, you know, we do need restaurants, we do need the daycare, we do need the banks, the Nature’s Fair grocery store, the, um, the breweries or the coffee shops, whatever it might be, if you, you know, looking out my office window, I’m looking at there are two towers that are being built right now, but the one main building and, and if you look around the area, the amount of residential development, it’s now meeting that, the capacity that we absolutely need this commercial development in the area.

[00:16:54] Um, and we got full trust in Tracey and the team to know the market, understand what the needs are in this area, uh, because ultimately, uh, we want the commercial shopping center to be, you know, busy, bolstering, you know, a lot of people going in there and accessing all the commercial amenities in there because at the end of the day, that helps support our tax base as well. So, you know, whatever Tracey and the team can come up with that’s, um, going to meet the current market needs, uh, we’re here for it. And whatever she’s described so far is exactly what we’re looking for. And they keep me apprised, but I don’t veto. We don’t come in, same thing as, you know, any kind of municipality would do.

[00:17:32] Tracey Klaver: Like the zoning, right? 

[00:17:34] Derek Epp: Yeah, as long as it meets the zoning requirements or zoning laws, it’s, yeah, follow the guidelines and then they have the autonomy and right to do that. And that’s the same thing that with any development on our reserve is we’re simply a municipality in this. We’re not going to be overstepping that, those boundaries and, um, we, we pride ourselves in, um, attracting investment and attracting development and not being somebody, a government who is, uh, trying to rule with an iron fist and make sure that, uh, whatever, whatever we want happens, no, it’s, it’s really about ensuring the balance between, uh, being that, that governing body and making sure we’re supporting the developers to do what they do best.

[00:18:14] Jennifer-Lee: Great. And when it comes to lease land for the people that are going to be buying a condo, what does lease land mean? And I don’t know what one of you, what you can give us the professional real estate answer, Tracey, what, what have you picked? 

[00:18:29] Tracey Klaver: Yeah, that’s, that’s always the, uh, the golden question, you know, um, what is leasehold land? And I really like to simplify it to our buyers as much as possible. Um, because I think, you know, we’ve, we’ve had these preconceived ideas of what leasehold land is and really when you talk to somebody they probably don’t get it right. So you know apples and apples, first of all, not all, not all leasehold land is created equal. There are many different types of leasehold land. We have park leasehold at Cultus lake. We have, you know, city leasehold land in, in Vancouver. You have, um, church leasehold lands, um, right? We have developments in Chilliwack. Um, so this is First Nations leasehold land and, um, so with that, I like to sort of simplify it.

[00:19:17] People say, oh, what, we don’t own our land on that leasehold land. You know, we don’t, we don’t want, well, actually you do. You, you own the fee simple bundle of rights attached to the land, okay? Um, but there’s a time limit on it. In this case, Andmar has a hundred and nine year lease. Um, so that’s established right off the bat and you have a head lease and you have a sub lease. So, our owners are the subleasees and the developer is the subleasor. Okay, so, the developer, uh, uh, creates, like, they have the head lease, that’s how they buy the rights to the land. Uh, you know, so they have the terms and conditions set up with Tzeachten. And then they have a provision within that head lease to create the sublease, right, so then that creates the landlord tenant or the leasor, leasee relationship. So the owners are in essence the sub leasees, and they have a sub leasee agreement that sets out the terms and conditions for that a hundred and nine year lease. So, if that kind of explains it a little bit, um, in a nutshell. 

[00:20:16] Jennifer-Lee: Then I have another question about that because this is something that a lot of people talk about. Again, they might not be talking about the right leasehold land. It’s just kind of a general statement, but a lot of people will say they don’t want to buy leasehold anywhere because they don’t feel it’s going to appreciate in value when you go to sell, opposed to buying something that’s, uh, not leasehold. So what would you say to that? 

[00:20:40] Tracey Klaver: Well, again, that’s, um, you know, that’s pretty, uh, a broad statement because, um, sure, there can be areas that you’re purchasing on anywhere, whether it’s leasehold or freehold that’s not going to appreciate, you know, there’s certain areas that that’s just the case. Um, I’m really proud to say that we’ve set precedence on the value on leasehold land in Chilliwack. Um, from right from the beginning when we started selling, uh, Englewood, uh, Courtyard. Uh, there’s a hundred and thirty-six condos that is the sister really, uh, development to Englewood Village. And, um, you know, we started off, uh, you know, it was a hard sell. And, um, once we sort of started educating, not just the consumer, but the realtors.

[00:21:23] And, um, because they’re the ones that are ultimately going to be bringing buyers to us, um, you know, for that sale. And once you start providing the information, everything opened up. Um, I remember, um, it was a little bit before Derek’s time as being Chief. Um, but I, I used to host a, uh, everything you want to know about selling, buying and selling leasehold land for realtors. And it was in our, uh, in our sales office in the clubhouse. And I would invite, um, you know, local, uh, notary and, um, lawyer and mortgage brokers and Deanna, uh, Derek’s lands manager, who’s still in, in that position. She would come, um, and we would, so we would have a panel of experts for realtors to be able to ask the important questions.

[00:22:12] So they say, well, what’s going to happen to that lease when it, when it runs out? Good question. Um, but what we’re developing is, um, you know, homes that, you know, are wood frame construction, condos, generally in wood frame construction. Um, I don’t know about your house, but, you know, is it going to last a hundred and nine years? Generally speaking, let’s call it like in Vancouver, right? So we’ve got some old areas where, you know, the condos are, whether it’s, you know, South Vancouver and in Marple area or on Kingsway and in, um, Metrotown. A lot of those old, old buildings, right, developers will come along and they’ll want to purchase the land, right, do a blanket, uh, purchase, um, to the owners and bring it up to its highest and best, uh, development, right?

[00:23:02] So within that, they’re going to do a feasibility study. Same thing goes with the Tzeachten lands. One day, a developer is going to come along. How is this, how is this land going to look in, you know, sixty, seventy years? I have no clue, but I bet you it’s going to be a lot different. So a developer will likely come along and say, okay, um, you know, we want to bring this to its highest and best use. Part of that feasibility study would be getting an extension on that lease. And since the Tzeachten is so pro business, um, you know, that way that they’ve, um, you know, built themselves up, um, that process is going to be, I think, as the years sort of unfold, um, a lot easier to sort of predict. I think, Derek, correct me if I’m wrong, I think we’re going to be seeing, um, longer leases now being offered, and what about a, um, like a perpetual renewal each time?

[00:23:56] Derek Epp: Hundred percent. Yeah, like we’re looking at, you know, at a fifty year mark, there’s a, there’s a trigger that says, okay, you have to renegotiate the lease. You know, there’s all these mechanisms now in place that ultimately protect the leaseholder. And that’s really what we’re about as well is ensuring, because at the end of the day, you know, we depend on these revenue streams to continue to be self sufficient and self determining. Um, and we all have our laws, We have a, we have an obligation being a government because we have municipal status. We are, you know, very progressive. We have an obligation that we have to, uh, be here to protect our taxpayers. And that’s all the individuals who are living in these developments. Uh, that’s a duty that we have.

[00:24:36] And, and Trace is absolutely right. You know, like any other development on or off reserve, there’s a shelf life. And at the end of the day, somebody will come in and want to acquire that development in that piece of land. Maybe bulldoze the whole thing. Who knows? And start over and rebuild and that same thing with any other development on or off reserve. And we’ll be here to say yes, please, let’s do this, let’s redevelop. We’re looking at doing that ourselves. We have a shopping centre right behind us that’s a very healthy, vibrant shopping centre, um, you know, but it’s thirty years old now. It’s, you know, twenty-five, thirty years old now, and we own it, uh, we’ve leased it to ourselves to, to protect ourselves as well.

[00:25:15] Um, and it’s something that we look at a redevelopment process now as well, because we only leased it to ourselves for forty-five years. That was thirty years ago, short sighted of us. Now we’re looking that we have to lease it to ourselves for ninety-nine or a hundred and fifty or two hundred years and we’re doing the same thing with these developments. Um, you know, Tracey’s writes a hundred and nine year lease, uh, but that’s not to say that that can’t be renegotiated in twenty, thirty, forty years. That’ll ultimately be up to the homeowners, the developer, whoever is in there that’s forming that homeowners association. If they feel it is time to renegotiate the lease, they have every right to do that and extend it or whatever that may look like, and to protect their asset and uh, yeah, and your appreciation.

[00:25:57] Um, I can tell you, you know, Tzeachten is probably, it was probably one of the most high value land in Chilliwack right now. You know, we, I do a lot of this work across the country now explaining the importance of building an economy, um, and the importance of being self sufficient through, uh, progressive economic development. And a lot of that is looking at the comparables. Now, if you look at a lot of our developments, um, all the ones that the Tracey and her team have done, um, meet the standard of any price per, uh, for sale on or off reserve. You wouldn’t know the difference. 

[00:26:31] Our individuals living on Tzeachten and we, we believe in, in, in equitable tax base as well. So we simply adopt the city of Chilliwack’s tax base, our tax rates. So they don’t see any difference in the taxes they pay. They get the same level of services. Water, sewer, um garbage collection, whatever road maintenance, whatever it may be, um, actually in fact, there’s some people don’t even know they buy on Tzeachten. They don’t even know they buy on reserve. And that’s probably up to the realtor probably not explaining that well enough to them. Uh, but we get it a lot where our taxpayers go to the city hall to pay taxes and they’re like no you actually live on Tzeachten. 

[00:27:05] And they’re like, excuse me? I live on a reserve? What? Like, it just is really because there’s such a comfort now, uh, to living on a reserve like Tzeachten. And, and many other communities are catching up, but we’ve been in this game for so long, we have so many laws, so many policies that, that protect the individuals living in our communities, our taxpayers, because we know that without them, uh, we wouldn’t have the ability to do what we do as a government. And we’re like any other government, we rely on tax base, we rely on those, um, those municipal type taxes and provincial taxes to sustain our operations and continue to do the unique things that we do. 

[00:27:45] Jennifer-Lee: Love it. And can you explain a little bit more of how a development like that sustains some of the projects that you’ve got going on besides just development? Because I think, again, a lot of people don’t know where the money is going and they just don’t understand. 

[00:27:57] Derek Epp: Yeah, so like, we have a revenue sharing agreement, a service agreement with the City of Chilliwack. And so we collect, um, property tax, property transfer tax, development cost charges. And community contributions, same thing as any municipality does. Seventy-five percent of our property tax goes back to the city to pay for those critical infrastructure, like, you know, water, sewers, treatment, garbage collection, whatever it may be. Twenty-five percent of those taxes stay with Tzeachten, but we have strict spending requirements on those funds where we have to spend it on, um, public infrastructure, whatever that looks like, you know, so we do a lot of road upgrades, sidewalk upgrades, lighting upgrades, because if you look at a lot of reserves around the country, most reserves, you know, the typical stigma is you don’t have sidewalks, you don’t have proper lighting, you don’t have the proper street access, wastewater treatment, whatever it may be. 

[00:28:48] So we have to spend some of our tax base on that. We also own a large sports facility. If, if you work in any kind of government, you know that any kind of recreation facility is, uh, is a debt. It’s not an, you don’t make money off of those facilities. So we have to service using some of our tax base to cover those costs. Um, and, and it really, we, you know, I mean, a new administration building, um, we needed that to ensure we are continuing to meet the, the needs of our taxpayers as well as our membership as well. And, and we have a lot of our community amenities that are open up like parks, whatever it may be, that are open to the general community.

[00:29:24] And that’s what we, we have to fund those public infrastructure through taxation. You know, and property transfer tax is very similar. We, you know, that’s one of the tax revenues that we get to keep, uh, which is fantastic. Um, but there’s spending requirements on all of it. So it’s that stigma around, you know, First Nations, um, one, don’t pay taxes is a complete lie. Um, and two, that we, um, we get to spend on whatever we see fit. Well, no, we have requirements as any other government does that, uh, a finance administration law that speaks to what we, uh, how we utilize those revenues, uh, to ensure that we’re meeting the, not only our members, but the general public’s need as well, because that’s our responsibility as a government. 

[00:30:06] So, um, yeah, I hope that, you know, that answers the question because a lot of it is, yeah, it’s really, it’s really breaking down the stigmas around, um, the general society’s view on, on, uh, a lot of people believe that the federal government still subsidize First Nations. Well, that’s in fact, the opposite, you know, we actually subsidize the local government in what we do. Uh, you know, in a lot of the taxes we collect, go back to our municipality. And a lot of the taxes that we keep goes back in providing public infrastructure by and it creates jobs, it creates, um, it creates a revenue stream for the province through income tax. Um, and it really stimulates our local economy. We do about a half a billion dollars a year, just local economic impact on our little reserve. Um, and so that’s, without that, the City of Chilliwack wouldn’t have jobs, it wouldn’t have the tax base, the federal and provincial government wouldn’t be collecting the taxes they get from the people working in my community. 

[00:30:57] Jennifer-Lee: Wow. So there’s lots of benefits to the community as a whole with lease land is what I am hearing, so many things. Which I, which I figured was the case. But again, a lot of people don’t take the time to explore that. What are some benefits to the condo owner being on lease land opposed to freehold land? 

[00:31:14] Tracey Klaver: So, uh, with the partnership that we did with, uh, Tzeachten on Andmar, um, we are able to, um, be GST exempt for our purchasers. 

[00:31:23] Jennifer-Lee: Whoa! 

[00:31:24] Tracey Klaver: That’s, that’s a really big deal. Um, they still collect the property transfer tax. Like any other sale anywhere else, you have to pay that. Um, but that’s a huge savings to our purchasers. Um, you know, right off the bat. So I would say that that is foremost one of the biggest for the consumer, uh, the biggest pluses on buying on First Nations. 

[00:31:48] Derek Epp: Yeah. And I think just in general, like, you know, I think it’s just in general, we’re providing a product that, you know, quite honestly is, um, is, is not really like, you know, really in this area of town. It is creating a, a community on this side of town that I think is so needed if, it really connects certain parts of Chilliwack that were quite disconnected. 

[00:32:09] Tracey Klaver: That’s true because in Sardis, right, if you look at the map of Sardis, you see all these pockets of, you know, Indian Reservation 13, Tzeachten, right? And so what are we going to do with that land? It’s perfect. It’s prime. It’s the best development land out there. For a developer this is, this is the type of land that you want. Um, you know, rather than taking land out of the ALR, right, why would we when we can develop right smack in the middle of the community, uh, these pockets of, of land. 

[00:32:40] Derek Epp: And we’re able to like, you know, a lot of what, like, you know, the housing crisis, right? Like, and, and, you know, without First Nations development, um, you wouldn’t see the amount of units being built in Chilliwack without communities like Tzeachten. And where would they be built? You know, quite frankly, there’s really nowhere else to build in Chilliwack except for on reserve land. And Tzeachten is one of those contributors. So we’re, we’re really playing our part in meeting, uh, the local communities demand in housing and being flexible with what we look at in the form of housing. And condos is a perfect fit right now for the affordability of, of the housing market and we’re actually able to, you know, help try to meet that affordability because we’re able to move through these permitting processes in a really timely manner and make sure that there’s not a lot of carrying costs with time. You know, that’s a lot of what hinders the market right now is the process to get a large scale development approved through municipalities can be extremely lengthy. Well, we, we can do that in a fraction of the time and we feel we, we meet the demand of the market with a very high quality product and that’s something that really helps the affordability of, of housing in BC. 

[00:33:51] Jennifer-Lee: Which is such a need we need right now. So, that is very great that you guys are being part of that solution. For sustainability, because it’s something that we talk about a lot, my family comes from a background in construction. I know we always talk about different things like the step code and things like that in residential and different municipalities have different rules. Is there any requirements that you require for sustainability for a project like Andmar? 

[00:34:16] Derek Epp: Yeah, we use this, so the BC building code, same standards apply on reserve as they do off reserve. But what’s unique about it? I’ll let Tracey maybe share a bit more about the sustainability of the project here, but it’s really going to have that, you know, the, that really close, and we’ll talk a bit more about this on the next podcast, that fifteen minute kind of city vibe, right? And that’s reducing the need of a vehicle, reducing emissions, hopefully through that. Um, creating an environment where you could work, live and play in this, in this development and be able to thrive as a young student, as an aging senior. And everything in between. So, um, I’ll stop there. I’ll let Tracey maybe share a bit more, but yeah.

[00:34:59] Tracey Klaver: That’s for another podcast. I mean, we’re going to get fully into the sustainability, um, but one of the requirements on our master plan, um, from the Tzeachten was to have enough green space and, um, that’s, that’s a really big deal. So we’ve, um, done our master plan with, you know, nice greenery, good sections of like, it’s, it’s not a concrete jungle in there by all means. Um, in fact, that, that property is going to be a lot greener than it ever was. Um, so our landscaping plans are going to be such that, you know, we’ll be putting in, um, you know, semi mature trees like in the parking areas and, um, there’ll be other green space areas within that. So, um, I think that that is, um, I know that the Tzeachten takes that, um, very seriously and making sure that, you know, the, the ratio, right, of development and green space has a good balance. 

[00:35:56] Jennifer-Lee: But that is the benefit of this particular lease land agreement because you have such a great band like Tzeachten looking over and really making sure that it’s a great development for everyone. And so that’s, I would say a really big plus of this lease land development. Uh, I want to know, what would you guys like to change in people’s mind if you could change one thing in their minds about what lease land is? What would it be? 

[00:36:25] Tracey Klaver: Well, I want to say that they got it, you know, they think oh, but I don’t own the land. And I think we already crossed that one. You do. You own the title. You have the fee simple rights that are attached to that. And a funny story is too, um, when you’re on freehold land, you don’t own the dirt. The crown owns the dirt.

[00:36:41] Derek Epp: I was going to say that Tracey. It’s like, it’s, it’s, not many people know that. 

[00:36:47] Tracey Klaver: They don’t. Until you’ve got somebody that, you know, the city wants to come along and they need to take some of that land back for could be for landfill, could be like various,

[00:36:57] Derek Epp: Road expansions.

[00:36:59] Tracey Klaver: Yes, road expansion. There you go. Um, so, 

[00:37:02] Jennifer-Lee: I didn’t know that. Look, I’m learning something from you. 

[00:37:05] Tracey Klaver: Yeah, so, I mean, basically, um, you don’t own the dirt. It, there’s, that’s a misconception right there on freehold land. So when I try to compare freehold versus leasehold, right, you own the title to the land, you own the fee simple bundle of rights, um, neither of you own the dirt. Um, and on, on First Nations leasehold land, you know, you have a term, right, of that ownership. And, and that’s really to keep that as it, as, as its most simplest terms. A good indication on, um, the viability of leasehold land, um, property is if the banks are going to finance it. That’s a really big deal, and I can assure you, especially we’ve, we’ve already gotten approvals from not just credit unions, right? But major lenders, um, have already approved our, um, our lease at Andmar, as well as our other developments. Really, I gotta say, it’s because they’re on Tzeachten. Everything that Tzeachten puts out, the banks are willing to sign up and, and, um, and mortgage these lands. So that’s a really good indication, um, I would say for the public. If the banks are lending on it, then it’s, it’s a no brainer. 

[00:38:17] Derek Epp: Yeah, and I think for me, like Tracey nailed it as well. And for me, a lot of the negative stigma we hear is, is like, oh, they can just kick us off whenever they want. No, no, we can’t. Legally we can’t. And also ethically we would never. Um, and that’s something that I think, you know, a lot of people probably would, would appreciate hearing from someone like myself is, you know, we would, we would never legally do that or ethically do that. I think that’s something that, in fact, we’ve encouraged the opposite. If there’s an ability to negotiate a longer term lease and the HOA or homeowners association or the developer feels like they want to, well, we’re here for it. Because we know that sustainable and that ensures that that term that I started with earlier ensures, that planning for us that we can continue to do what we do best. And that’s, um, you know, being a government and using the funds that we get to continue to evolve and expand and, and, and really stimulate our local economy and provide not only for our members, but for the community.

[00:39:24] Jennifer-Lee: And build a community. We want a thriving community of all ages in all of our municipalities. That’s really what we’re trying to strive for. So what a great way to wrap it up. Thank you so much Chief Derek for joining us today and Tracey as well. I really appreciate it. I think now I even have a different perspective of lease land. So you guys worked on it. And again, I didn’t realize when you own freehold, you don’t own the dirt. So I didn’t know that a highway can come in and take out a chunk of your building. So good to know. More things to think about when looking for a condo. 

[00:39:57] Tracey Klaver: The more we know, the more we realize we don’t know. 

[00:39:59] Jennifer-Lee: I don’t know. Now I’m going to be looking, making sure I’m nowhere near a highway. Okay, there we go, that can take a piece of the building. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. 

[00:40:08] Tracey Klaver: Thanks Jennifer. Thanks Derek. 

[00:40:10] Derek Epp: Yeah. I appreciate it guys. Okay. 

[00:40:12] Tracey Klaver: See y’all later. 

[00:40:14] Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for joining us on Behind the Design from Yaletown to Andmar. We’ve explored the history, innovation, and sustainability that makes Andmar more than just a community. It’s a place where life, business, and connection thrive. If you’ve been inspired by this podcast, we’d love your support. Follow the podcast, rate it and leave a review to help others discover what makes Andmar so special. Till next time.