Leasehold Myths Busted: Why Andmar is a Smart Investment

[00:00:00] Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to Behind the Design from Yaletown to Andmar. This new podcast is going to follow the journey of the new development, Andmar, inspired by Vancouver's Yaletown's history. Andmar blends sustainability, innovation, and luxury. We have so many conversations about how a development like Andmar gets built, what is lease land, and what is it going to be like to live in this thriving community. So let's get started.

[00:00:28] Welcome back to Behind the Design, Andmar to Yaletown podcast. I'm Jennifer-Lee. I'm joined by Tracey again, and we have another guest that is a big part of this Andmar development, and that is Chief Derek Epp of the Tzeachten First Nations. So welcome, Derek. Thank you for coming on and hi again, Tracey.

[00:00:50] Tracey Klaver: Hi, Jen. Thanks for having us.

[00:00:52] Derek Epp: Yeah. Hi, Jen. Really appreciate you having us and looking forward to it.

[00:00:55] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and we're talking about a topic that I don't feel like a lot of us know about, myself included, until I started researching more, and it has been something we're hearing more and more about on the news, but lease land. And Andmar is on lease land. And so I wanted to get into this conversation to kind of get rid of those misconceptions that people may have. But before we get into that, let's talk about you, Chief Derek. Who are you? Give us a little bit about yourself.

[00:01:25] Derek Epp: Yeah, no, thanks, Jen. Uh, yeah, as Jen said, Chief Derek Epp of Tzeachten First Nation. I've been Chief now, I'm coming up in my ninth year pretty quick, which is pretty crazy to think about. Um, I've been along for a lot of the kind of progressive development that Tzeachten has taken on over the last decade or so. And really, a lot of that has been in partnership and working alongside individuals like Tracey, the Andmar crew. Um, and they've done a lot of our developments on Tzeachten over the years. So, um, it's really exciting to see this project almost culminate like our relationship over the last, what, it's really been like twenty years of working with, uh, the Andmar crew, including Tracey and Mark and Andrew and, and really, uh, you know, seeing now this ten acre development on Andmar is, uh, really, it's going to be a staple of what we're kind of coining is the Sardis central, this, this area of Chilliwack, Sardis area, that is really becoming one of the most sought after neighbourhoods in, in Chilliwack.

[00:02:23] And it's a relationship that's, that we, we've built over time and something that's really exciting. So a lot of my role in Chief is really ensuring that we're looking at, planning for something we call. Which is, um, the seven generations ahead of us and making sure we're taking that historical knowledge that, that, um, that input from our ancestors from seven generations before us and using that to help guide us and making decisions and planning for the next seven generations. And a lot of that is stapled in, um, economic development. And building our own economy and sustainable revenues to ensure we can be self sufficient and self determining. So, this is all part of it.

[00:03:02] Jennifer-Lee: And the big question is, and you probably each have your own story about it. So, we'll toss it over to Tracey first. How did you meet, uh, Chief Derek? Tell us your version first and then I'll get him to tell his.

[00:03:15] Tracey Klaver: Um, well, I think that was a long time ago. Uh, Derek, you were on site.

[00:03:20] Derek Epp: I was.

[00:03:21] Tracey Klaver: You were still, you were, you were going to UBC though.

[00:03:23] Derek Epp: Yeah, I was still in university.

[00:03:24] Tracey Klaver: You were in university and you came with a group and you did a walkthrough of Englewood Courtyard. And who knew that you were going to be the future Chief? I don't even think that you knew at that time. That wasn't really in your forecasted future, was it?

[00:03:42] Derek Epp: Nope, not at all. I was working in the development in Englewood, uh, as working with one of the develop, uh, the developers in there and, uh, finishing up university and, and, uh, I got to meet Tracey, Mark and Andrew. It probably is like twenty years ago now, uh, which is crazy to think about. So I started as just working in the development and working in my community as a labourer mostly and, and while I was in university and yeah, Tracey's right. I did not even have an inkling at that time that I thought I would be Chief, um, especially now for almost nine years, which is pretty crazy to think about.

[00:04:15] Jennifer-Lee: Uh, did she get that correct then? Chief Derek?

[00:04:18] Derek Epp: She did. And my grandma lived in the development or lives in the development still as well. Yeah, Georgina. So I, I have a lot of roots in there and it's funny. I used to have extended lunches and Mark and everybody knew that when I went to have lunch with grandma in the, in the development, they knew I was there for like an hour and a half or two hours. So I get these extra long lunches just because my grandma lives in there. Um, and now I, you know, fast forward now being the Chief, I think I could just tell him I'm taking a long lunch and it doesn't matter.

[00:04:49] Jennifer-Lee: Now you don't need an excuse.

[00:04:50] Derek Epp: No, right? I don't need their permission anymore. Yeah.

[00:04:54] Jennifer-Lee: I love what you said about the seven generations principle. Can you explain that a little bit more and how Andmar kind of fits into that?

[00:05:01] Derek Epp: Yeah, it's a really, it's a, it's a, it's a word that means, means a lot to us. Right. So it really is about ensuring that, you know, we don't forget about what our ancestors went through, what are our grandparents, great grandparents all went through and what the sacrifices they made to ensure that we had, uh, that I was able to step into this position as Chief and carry on a lot of the progress that the individuals who came before me laid the groundwork for.

[00:07:17] Jennifer-Lee: That's really lovely. I love that idea of seven generations. And how does someone, like, if they want to develop land with you, like, how did they approach the band?

[00:07:35] Derek Epp: So it's a mix. Like it depends if a lot of our land is owned by individual band members or individual members of Tzeachten. So if that member is looking to develop their land, then typically that's an independent process that they take on.

[00:09:50] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. And I love this development. I, Tracey, we didn't really explain it last time, but can you explain the future of Andmar, like how many buildings is it going to be when it's completed?

[00:10:07] Tracey Klaver: Well, what we have is a comprehensive development with commercial, retail and residential. So, um, we've now, um, we've got ten acres that we're developing. Uh, we've got a total of eleven buildings. Um, and, uh, let's see, five of them are strictly residential and the rest are mixed use.

[00:15:32] Jennifer-Lee: Great. And Chief Derek, as the leaser of this land, uh, do you get to veto or have any input of what type of businesses they put?

[00:15:51] Derek Epp: No, like not necessarily. Of course, like they're, you know, if they decide to put in an extreme business that nobody agrees with and maybe, yeah, we might step in. But no, I mean, in, in all seriousness, no, like for the most part, we got full trust in that team.

[00:18:14] Jennifer-Lee: Great. And when it comes to lease land for the people that are going to be buying a condo, what does lease land mean?

[00:18:29] Tracey Klaver: Yeah, that's, that's always the, uh, the golden question, you know, um, what is leasehold land? And I really like to simplify it to our buyers as much as possible. People say, oh, what, we don't own our land on that leasehold land. You know, we don't, we don't want, well, actually you do. You, you own the fee simple bundle of rights attached to the land, okay? Um, but there's a time limit on it. In this case, Andmar has a hundred and nine year lease.

[00:20:16] Jennifer-Lee: Then I have another question about that because this is something that a lot of people talk about. A lot of people will say they don't want to buy leasehold anywhere because they don't feel it's going to appreciate in value when you go to sell.

[00:20:40] Tracey Klaver: Well, again, that's, um, you know, that's pretty, uh, a broad statement because, um, sure, there can be areas that you're purchasing on anywhere, whether it's leasehold or freehold that's not going to appreciate, you know, there's certain areas that that's just the case. Um, I'm really proud to say that we've set precedence on the value on leasehold land in Chilliwack.

[00:27:45] Jennifer-Lee: Love it. And can you explain a little bit more of how a development like that sustains some of the projects that you've got going on besides just development?

[00:27:57] Derek Epp: Yeah, so like, we have a revenue sharing agreement, a service agreement with the City of Chilliwack. And so we collect, um, property tax, property transfer tax, development cost charges. Seventy-five percent of our property tax goes back to the city to pay for those critical infrastructure.

[00:30:57] Jennifer-Lee: Wow. So there's lots of benefits to the community as a whole with lease land is what I am hearing, so many things. What are some benefits to the condo owner being on lease land opposed to freehold land?

[00:31:14] Tracey Klaver: So, uh, with the partnership that we did with, uh, Tzeachten on Andmar, um, we are able to, um, be GST exempt for our purchasers.

[00:31:23] Jennifer-Lee: Whoa!

[00:31:24] Tracey Klaver: That's, that's a really big deal. Um, they still collect the property transfer tax. Like any other sale anywhere else, you have to pay that. Um, but that's a huge savings to our purchasers.

[00:33:51] Jennifer-Lee: Which is such a need we need right now. So, that is very great that you guys are being part of that solution. For sustainability, because it's something that we talk about a lot, is there any requirements that you require for sustainability for a project like Andmar?

[00:34:16] Derek Epp: Yeah, we use this, so the BC building code, same standards apply on reserve as they do off reserve. But what's unique about it is it's really going to have that fifteen minute kind of city vibe, right? And that's reducing the need of a vehicle, reducing emissions, hopefully through that.

[00:35:56] Jennifer-Lee: But that is the benefit of this particular lease land agreement because you have such a great band like Tzeachten looking over and really making sure that it's a great development for everyone. Uh, I want to know, what would you guys like to change in people's mind if you could change one thing in their minds about what lease land is?

[00:36:25] Tracey Klaver: Well, I want to say that they got it, you know, they think oh, but I don't own the land. And I think we already crossed that one. You do. You own the title. You have the fee simple rights that are attached to that. And a funny story is too, um, when you're on freehold land, you don't own the dirt. The crown owns the dirt.

[00:38:17] Derek Epp: Yeah, and I think for me, like Tracey nailed it as well. And for me, a lot of the negative stigma we hear is, is like, oh, they can just kick us off whenever they want. No, no, we can't. Legally we can't. And also ethically we would never.

[00:39:24] Jennifer-Lee: And build a community. We want a thriving community of all ages in all of our municipalities. That's really what we're trying to strive for. So what a great way to wrap it up. Thank you so much Chief Derek for joining us today and Tracey as well.

[00:39:57] Tracey Klaver: The more we know, the more we realize we don't know.

[00:40:08] Tracey Klaver: Thanks Jennifer. Thanks Derek.

[00:40:10] Derek Epp: Yeah. I appreciate it guys. Okay.

[00:40:12] Tracey Klaver: See y'all later.

[00:40:14] Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for joining us on Behind the Design from Yaletown to Andmar. We've explored the history, innovation, and sustainability that makes Andmar more than just a community. It's a place where life, business, and connection thrive. If you've been inspired by this podcast, we'd love your support. Follow the podcast, rate it and leave a review to help others discover what makes Andmar so special. Till next time.