Episode 5

[00:00:00] Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to Behind the Design from Yaletown to Andmar. This new podcast is gonna follow the journey of the new development Andmar inspired by Vancouver’s Yaletown’s history, Andmar blends sustainability, innovation, and luxury. We have so many conversations about how a development like Andmar gets built, what is lease land and what is it gonna be like to live in this thriving community? So let’s get started. 

[00:00:27] Welcome back to Behind the Design, Andmar to Yaletown. I am Jennifer-Lee. Uh, today we’re talking about transportation in a city. It’s so important for any city to have any type of transportation, but we never really think about how it really shapes the places that we live in. We understand many people commute in different ways, either by transit, by car, by electric bike, which is becoming very popular, by regular bike. So we gotta have a city that encompasses it all in order for it to thrive. So today I have an expert. We have the general manager of engineering services of City of Vancouver, Lon LaClaire. How are you today? 

[00:01:09] Lon LaClaire: I’m good. I’m good. 

[00:01:11] Jennifer-Lee: Good. So I’m talking, I really enjoy transportation because I don’t think i mentioned on this podcast yet, but I used to fly, and I still kind of do, in the sky for many years, reporting on traffic of the lower mainland. So it was one of Global’s Eyes in the Sky, and so I totally understand a lot about transportation infrastructure and how it affects a lot of the cities here in the lower mainland. So I was like, oh, finally I get to nerd out with somebody about transportation because it’s so important. I think a lot of us have the misconception that it’s an afterthought, but actually a lot goes into planning, especially when you are developing cities like the one, uh, that we’re doing this podcast for in Chilliwack, the Andmar development. So to you, what does transportation in general mean to a city? 

[00:02:04] Lon LaClaire: Well, it’s probably one of the most important pieces, uh, of, of a successful city. Um, what’s it mean to a city with, without it, you actually don’t gain the benefit of a city. So the great thing about, um, so a small town, you’ll have all the certain things that you can do in a small town, and when you have a big city, you have a lot of things that can only happen in a big city, like big stadiums or, you know, high, highly specialized, um, medicine or, you know, education systems with strong specialization. Uh, and, and, and, and eventually that encompasses a very large area, you know, metropolitan area. In fact, you could say ours does go all the way up to Chilliwack in this region.

[00:02:49] Uh, but without a good transportation system, you don’t gain the benefits of that. You know, in fact, the real value of a city is that you’re easily able to do this and that, and this thing. And have a meeting, uh, with someone in like in specialized on this thing and attend an event on this other thing. And like you, you, you get the, you get the benefit of a large city if you have a good transportation system. That’s it. Otherwise, if you, if you have a poor transportation system and a big city, you’ll kind of end up having to live quite locally because it’ll be too frustrating and too difficult to get to those other places. And then you kinda lose the benefit of a big city. You might as well just be in a small town then.

[00:03:30] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and well and small town does have their merit and I think a lot of them want to expand. Like I was telling you before we dropped on this call that I lived at Fort St. John for my radio career and they do have some transit. It’s obviously not as extensive as you get in a bigger city, but some people still love that as a choice. But again, you’re dealing with a different climate. You’re dealing with a lot of snow. A lot of the roads have to be constantly clean. A lot of people up there because everything is spread out. It’s not all put together in little neighborhoods like we have in a city here where we have, you know, Yaletown, we have Olympic Village, everything’s a little bit more accessible. Everything’s spread out. 

[00:04:08] So it is more of a car culture up there. But when it comes to the case of Andmar, this is something that, uh, one of the co-founders Mark is really passionate about, is that in Sardis, BC, in Chilliwack, he really wants to give everybody option. If you wanna drive, you can drive. If you wanna take transit, you can take transit. If you wanna do an EVO car share, you can do that. You can ride a bike, ride a bike, you can walk down to your coworking space. And so I think a lot of these smaller cities are starting to adopt that practice of like, hey, how do we give everybody some value in the way that they wanna travel? 

[00:04:44] Lon LaClaire: And, and absolutely. And in the influence of a, of a large city too, the smaller cities start to have a lot of the same benefits of the big city. Uh, you know, a good example is, say even Whistler or the Sunshine Coast. In Whistler, you know, transit’s quite well used. They have lots of pedestrian only areas. Sunshine Coast has one extremely successful local transit service ’cause it’s linear. Uh, the Frasier Valley has a really strong and bright future, I would say, as well for transit connectivity. And it’s because a lot of the people who might be in the city are used to getting around that way anyways. And so when they move out to a place, or go out to a place like, like, Chilliwack, uh, um, you know, the Sunshine Coast or Whistler, they’re comfortable, uh, with those options. You know, they’re comfortable making longer walk trips. They’re comfortable, you know, using a bike to, to get around and if there’s a good chance at option for their more distant destinations, they’ll even consider that as well, if you know what I mean. Like they, so there is this influence that happens.

[00:05:45] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I like that. And actually, I was talking to someone on another episode. He is a young guy that has bought into Andmar. He’s an accountant. He’s lived in Chilliwack his whole life. He wanted to be able to get his foot in the door there. But he said what he likes about it’s, he gets his lifestyle in Chilliwack. He’s close to the mountains, everything that he likes to do. But he says he still gets that city feel and he’s close enough to Vancouver because he likes to drive over there. So he says, I’m still not far away if I wanna hop into Vancouver, but then I get to come back and have that. And I know there have been talks to, nothing concrete yet, but talks to maybe possibly have the West Coast Express head towards Chilliwack one day. And that would definitely be a game changer because not everybody loves drive either. 

[00:06:25] Lon LaClaire: Absolutely. You know, in fact, uh, you know, already, you know, the Valley Express is operating almost every hour, uh, every day. That’s, that’s all the way out to Chilliwack, you know, connects right into, uh, Lougheed SkyTrain station. Uh, this is the beginning of building that, uh, that ridership. I think the ridership itself of the Fraser is actually inherently stronger than what the West Coast Express serves on the North Shore of the Fraser. Just because, you know, um, Chilliwack and Abbotsford are just, and Langley, are just way bigger cities than Maple Ridge and Mission. Like, they, they really are. Uh, and so getting that service out there, I think it would be an immediate success. Uh, and, and we can see it already with the ridership on the Valley Express kind of, um, in its infancy already doing quite well. 

[00:07:11] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I love it. And because that’s something I admire. Like I go to London quite a bit. London, England, not London, Ontario, but London, England. Um, and that’s the one thing that I admire because I have friends that live two hours out from London, uh, an hour out from London. They’re able to live where they wanna live that suits their budget. Not only that suits their lifestyle, maybe it’s close to their family, but they can take a train on an hour, two hours hop into London. Uh, they could do work on the train. It’s so much easier. And I, I kind of wanna become more like that for us, for the lower mainland because we do have so many, like Vancouver’s great. I live in Vancouver, but we have so many great other hidden gems here in the lower mainland. 

[00:07:50] Lon LaClaire: For sure. Uh, I mean, I grew up in the Valley, so, I like, uh, I was kinda did my high school in Mission, so I’m really familiar with the Valley. But I think that the reason that the, uh, transit future for the Fraser Valley is so bright is because it’s linear. It’s like they, a lot of, uh, large metropolitan cities like say Edmonton struggle with the fact that they could grow out in all directions, you know, and if you’re going to serve these kind of outer destinations, you’re kind of going in all direct, like, you know what I’m saying? It’s like 360. Uh, for us it’s east, right? It’s, it’s a, if you do a really good regional transit system, like a, like a West Coast Express, uh, type line, you really need to do one or two really good ones, you know, and they have to connect out to Abbotsford and Chilliwack.

[00:08:42] So, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m really, um, bullish on the future of transit in this mega region. I call it that, you know, up to Whistler, Sunshine Coast, you know, over to Nanaimo. Now we have Hello Ferries doing service to Nanaimo. You know, for people like that, you know, taking a flight outta YVR is just suddenly so much easier because they hop the high speed ferry with a suitcase, get off at the Canada line. They’re on the Canada line, they’re at the airport. You know, they don’t have to worry about anyone driving them there or the hassle of trying to get to the airport from these more distant locations. 

[00:09:15] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and the one thing that I was shocked about was just coming back from the airport. I never thought about it because I was leaving New York and a lot of people on my airplane were going to Whistler, but we were landing at like 9:00 PM at night, which is not really late, but I was like, I was ready to go to bed after, even that’s a short flight. Like I was like, I’m outta here. And as I’m leaving the airport, they had a shuttle right there to go to Whistler and saw everyone piling off their skis. And I said, that’s so smart. Something I would’ve never thought of because I would’ve been like. Let’s stay in a hotel overnight, if I did’t live here, and then go out to Whistler tomorrow. But it’s like, no, these people wanna go get as much time on the mountain. They hop on there, you know, the bus ride where it’s probably about two hours or a little bit, they’re, they’re in their hotel the next morning, they’re there in Whistler. So I do feel that we do have a lot of effective forms to get people from the airport, and that’s something we do do well. 

[00:10:04] Lon LaClaire: For sure. Yeah. 

[00:10:05] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. And when it comes to things like West Coast Express and like expanding, I think people get a little nervous when we are forcing a lot of transit. Um, they don’t see the benefits of it because I think a lot of people, and this is something I’ve talked about on this podcast, is people get worried that we’re having a war on their car and we’re gonna take their car away from them. And, uh, we talked a little bit about that on a, a previous episode, uh, the 15 minute City concept. But we were like, no, we’re not trying to take your car away from you. We’re trying to give you more options. ‘Cause you remember, not everybody has a car. So, so what would you say to people that are maybe like a little scared when you’re like, oh, transit’s awesome, but they, they wanna take my car away from me?

[00:10:47] Lon LaClaire: Yeah. No, the only way that in, uh, a growing city and region like ours where you have a chance of not having chronic congestion is actually to invest in transit. It’s a, it’s so fundamental. Um, if you look at the West Coast Express as an example, which moves a couple thousand people in a single hour, uh, into, into downtown. Um, so if you are moving, say in that case maybe 5,000 people an hour, um, a, a freeway lane can move about 2000, right? So you would have to add two more freeway lanes. Uh, and then what’s interesting is that, well, first of all, like that takes a lot of effort to do. Uh, if you need to expand the capacity on the West Coast Express, you can just add another train, right?

[00:11:43] And so suddenly that’s another thousand people an hour, which is like another traffic lane. Um, in the, in the city itself, it’s so extreme that if you look at the busiest section of our SkyTrain system on the Expo line between Broadway Station and, uh, Stadium Station, or a Main Street Station, Stadium Station that’s moving around 14 to 15,000 people an hour, uh, and Terminal Avenue below is moving about 800, if you know what I mean. Like so you think about the traffic that’s on Terminal Avenue going through Main and Terminal, there is no solution where you could invest in cars to move that many people. It, that’s just not possible. In fact, if I add up all of the streets that head into Vancouver, add them all together, the, that one train line is moving more people than all the streets added together.

[00:12:31] And it’s easily expandable. Like they’re gonna be adding five car trains, two Mark V’s, the new cars are bigger. You know, they can expand it up to 25,000 people an hour. Again, it’s an unfathomable amount, uh, for, for, for people to be moved in cars. Like, it’s just not, it’s not, it’s just not possible. And so you, the, the only really good way a driving future can also be supported is with good transit. I guess that’s what I’m trying to say is that, uh, without good transit, you can’t pull the peaks off and the peaks are the problem times, right? You know the, that kinda rush hour, the crush, that crush load, that can just really be managed well on transit and that’s exactly when the service is frequent, and that’s usually when it’s actually the most attractive to take. In the case of West Coast Express, it’s only available on peak hours, so you can’t even take it in the off peak. 

[00:13:22] Jennifer-Lee: I know and that’s something that I wonder if they’ll ever change. I understand there’s a lot more things that you have to do to make it run longer, but I know a lot of people are like, it would be nice if it ran a little later. ‘Cause I have friends that are out in Maple Ridge and stuff and they’re like, oh, I would take it instead of taking like an Uber, whatever, if it ran later. 

[00:13:40] Lon LaClaire: Yeah. Yeah. The trick to that is that, uh, there needs to be investment in the additional track, uh, to, to kind of untangle it from the freight service that it shares, that, the track with, uh, and the freight service has, you know, seniority. So it has the it, it has the, so by adding a couple of extra tracks or even just one extra track, you could introduce service that would be all day, you know, both directions. Uh, right now it’s inbound peak in the morning and outbound peak in the afternoon, and only on weekdays, so it’s not even on weekends.

[00:14:11] Jennifer-Lee: So there we go. I, I feel like that would be a good idea to invest in another track because especially if eventually it did go to Chilliwack, the people could go party in Vancouver on the, on the train. 

[00:14:23] Lon LaClaire: Yeah. I was looking at the Bright Line Project in LA, the one that’s going to Las Vegas. It’s interesting, they’re really just running it down the middle of the freeway. And that’s a very straightforward way to run a high speed rail without having to acquire a whole bunch of property along a corridor and untangle yourself from the freight, you know, uh, the, kind of, the burden that comes with using existing tracks. And in our region, of course, freight is extremely important being the biggest porting unit and all these Canadian goods that move through here, it’s really important that, uh, those freight lines continue to operate unencumbered. 

[00:15:01] Jennifer-Lee: I never thought about putting it down the freeway, but that is a, a, a smart use of space. 

[00:15:06] Lon LaClaire: And then people would see it go past and they’d go, you know what, maybe I should take that. It’s like, it’ll be like the best advertising ever, wouldn’t it? 

[00:15:13] Jennifer-Lee: Well, I’m thinking if you’re going from LA to Vegas, you’re most likely going to party. So why would you wanna take the car anyways? Because I’m sure that’s a horrible drive back afterwards, if you’ve had a fun-filled weekend, I’d rather just be sleeping on the train on the way back.

[00:15:26] Lon LaClaire: I’ve, I’ve taken that drive before. It’s, it, it’s traffic hell. And then like, and it’s just one of those distances too, where the flight just doesn’t quite make sense, you know? 

[00:15:37] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. Because it’s so quick. 

[00:15:39] Lon LaClaire: It’s too short. And so like, it’s a lot of effort to get to the airport, like the hour and a half you have to before, and getting to the airport isn’t easy, and then you end up with the, you know, yeah. 

[00:15:50] Jennifer-Lee: Even our flight from Vancouver to Vegas is so quick, but you spend more time at the airport I feel like, but you’re like, okay, we’ll do it. Uh, but that, that’s a nice thing is we’re hearing so many different options and I know they’re also trying to eventually get something from, uh, Vancouver to Seattle as well, that’s a little bit faster. So all these things are opening up that could help many of the different, um, smaller cities here in Vancouver grow. 

[00:16:18] Lon LaClaire: And like you say, it’s really just giving choice, right? A lot of people, they have a car of course, um, but if they see that the traffic’s bad and they don’t want to drive Highway One, um, because they know that it’s gonna be slow, having an option for some trips to, to kind of like not take the car is fantastic.

[00:16:36] Jennifer-Lee: It is. And, and that’s the thing is I try to tell people, it’s like when we’re putting more transit, it actually like, it benefits you. Like you said, if you can get more people on the transit during the peak times, that means there’s gonna be less cars on the road, which means it’s gonna be a better flow for people. And it’s not about take away your car, maybe use it on the weekend, maybe use it for groceries, maybe use it once in a while to go to work. But like I said, I’ve flown over the lower mainland and I know the pain points, and I could probably tell you exactly what traffic is doing right now because it’s the same pattern every day. And that’s the thing is, it’s like we can’t operate like this with the current infrastructure and the amount of cars on the road because we just, you don’t move. Like, I, I hate getting in a car now and going on a highway because I know when the traffic is and I hate being stuck. So I think it’s important. 

[00:17:27] There’s something else that’s kind of coming into play more and I see them more and, and, you know, they’re a little bit controversial, but I see a lot of people in Vancouver use them. And, uh, even in New York, I saw them hauling like little trailers for businesses. But electric bikes are becoming a more popular thing, but I think that’s something hard, and I kind want your opinion on this, is like, where do they go? Because even in New York, they were on the sidewalks. They were sometimes in the bike lane. They had a lot of bike lanes there. Here, you know, we see DoorDash and all them on, uh, bikes here and all the delivery services, which is fine, but they’re big and they’re on the sidewalk. But they, I’m a, a regular biker, um, in the bike lane. I think it’s tough too because they go so much faster. But I do think they do play an important role. But where do we stick them? 

[00:18:14] Lon LaClaire: Yeah, no, I think that that’s like a, a, a new consideration that’s really affected cycling design because it’s, it’s probably even with the eCargo bikes, um, the right place for them is the, the separated bike light. The, the trick is that, um, for the busier ones, that means that we have to design for that extra width, uh, and for this variation in users too. Already we’re seeing that with, um, e-scooters, with, uh, e-bikes versus, classic bikes, you wanna call it that, or, um, being able to pass or overtake the, the person ahead of you is becoming really important.

[00:18:56] Uh, you know, on a long hill, like going up, uh, the hill over the Burrard bridge. You know, the person on a classic bike is like, it’s a, it’s a slog, it’s a, it is a, but the person on the e-bike is just like gonna go right past them. But, uh, but that, in the end, the cycling option for like a city like ours ends up being the fastest way of getting around. So there’s a reason that, uh, all those, um, delivery and service providers are switching to scooters and electric bikes because, uh, you’re kind of immune to traffic. You know, there’s not enough traffic in the bike facilities yet that it feels like traffic. Even though they can be busy, you know, they’re not gonna be queued up at a signal if this, the next light signal you’ll get through, uh, unlike all the vehicle traffic.

[00:19:46] And because your point to point, uh, ability is actually often more convenient than what transit can provide, uh, the transit option will be quite a bit slower as well. So, uh, clearly faster than walking. Generally, almost always faster than transit and in almost all cases in our city, faster than driving. You’ve been in, like I’m in central Broadway here and, uh, you know, we have parallel bikeways for, on Broadway. So we don’t really have a bike facility on Broadway, but we have one on 10th Avenue, one fork off Broadway, one a couple blocks to the north and those routes parallel the corridor. Um, but for the cyclist, the advantage is their local streets, and you only hit a traffic signal at the major street, so you hit a traffic signal at Oak.

[00:20:38] Right? And then, you know, not until Cambie or something like that, and then you’ll have another signal at Main. If you’re going down Broadway, you’ll, you have a traffic signal on every single intersection. Every single intersection. And you know, even when there’s no traffic, no traffic at all, that’s gonna slow you down, right? So the bike, the bike routes are inherently quicker, uh, even in a low congestion moment. 

[00:21:03] Jennifer-Lee: Well, I just love the fact that I’m seeing, like I said, in the States, even here at home, more companies using electric bikes opposed to just, you know, I think people thought, oh, this is great for people that maybe need to get somewhere faster, have, um, a harder time of mobility. This is great option for them. But I love the fact that we’re adapting it and seeing more businesses. But as I do see those bigger little caravans on the back, I was wondering, I was like, we’re gonna have to adapt our lanes because some of the ones I saw in New York, I haven’t seen them that big here are like big and I was like, how do I get past one of those?

[00:21:38] Lon LaClaire: Yeah, no, I think we have a maximum size, so they, they, I don’t think they could get as big as they could based on our Motor Vehicle Act, but uh, um, yeah. Actually, just so you know too, like a, when I first started in engineering way back, you know, before like everything went electronic and online purchasing was a thing. Uh, there was still lots of bikes moving around, but they were all couriers. So we had, uh, we licensed, uh, cyclist couriers, uh, and really with the advent of email, like, and e-documents, uh, that need sort of melted away. Uh, and it’s had kind of been replaced by this other thing that technology has enabled, which is e-purchase.

[00:22:22] You know, so whether it’s food or products or, or whatever, uh, people are buying online, whereas in the old days it was just moving around documents. But they, back then it was worse. Like I remember, uh, lots and lots of cyclists on the sidewalks. Lots of frustration with the, with the bike couriers, uh, just because there was no bike facilities. Back then, they either had to be in the traffic, which is kind of like, kind of be pretty sketchy, uh, or on the sidewalk. Both of them were not really very good choices. Uh, you now, you know, with the network that we’ve built, um, there’s generally a good choice, you know, at a place to be and a place where you feel like you belong.

[00:23:03] Jennifer-Lee: And, and touching on your background, how did you ever get into transportation? How were you ever like, this is something that I wanna do? 

[00:23:10] Lon LaClaire: Uh, you know, I never did, uh, I never did think that I wanted to get into transportation when I was, uh, was young. I wanted to be an architect. Uh, so I was going to school, you know, studying in engineering as a kind of a undergraduate degree before going into architecture school. Uh, when I was in university, I took a couple courses in urban design, uh, and planning, urban planning, which really intrigued me. And so then I thought, oh no, now I have to switch careers to urban design and, and planning. But then I kind of did a master’s in transportation.

[00:23:43] And I thought actually this, this is kind of good because, uh, you know, in the real, in, as you mentioned, transportation and, and urban planning and land use are so linked, inextricably linked that, uh, working, getting my first job here at the City of Vancouver back in ’97 in transportation was like my, my dream come true. ‘Cause suddenly I was involved in city building the way I wanna be. Um, and, and from the engineering side, which is transportation, um, but still working hand in hand very closely with the land use planners. Uh, so very much a part of the city planning. 

[00:24:22] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I, I find just city planning fascinating, especially after, like flying above the city for like four years, because you get to see a lot, I always say people need to fly in a helicopter to understand how a city operates because you’ll be able to see the pain points right away. Um, which is kind of, kind of fun. Uh, with your knowledge and everything, um, for anyone, like, well, like just, we’re gonna just play like a little imaginary game right now, but like, what do you feel, um, would make like a really good city? 

[00:24:58] Lon LaClaire: Well, the, the, the foundation of a really good city, well, it’s kind of one of those things, there’s a, if you do an exercise, you ask your friends to kind of like, I don’t know, close their eyes and imagine the best city, like, you know, that they’ve, that they enjoyed themselves or would want to go back to. Uh, inevitably you can forecast that they’re thinking of a place that’s very walkable. That’s actually a joy to walk around. Uh, the foundation of a really successful city is a really great walking experience. Like, you know, you enjoy the city, you experience the city on foot. That’s how you like, that’s how you really get the most out of it. And so cities that do a very good job of the walking piece, that’s, that’s what I would describe as success.

[00:25:42] Now to get that to work, oddly enough, um, you have to have a lot of great transit. Because, uh, if you’re, like, if you had nothing but freeways, of course, you know, uh, you can’t make anything walkable. So how do you get to these walkable places that transit and like, it’s gotta be the number one way. And so if I look at the great cities of the world, you know, they usually have the most crazy, great transit systems, you know, hidden below the surface, often not apparent, uh, you know, like Paris. I will believe one of the best cities in the world, uh, and one of the absolute most amazing transit systems in the world. 

[00:26:24] Jennifer-Lee: But I also have to say, like, everyone loves to compare. Like, and they’re like, oh, Vancouver’s. And, and they’re not just mean Vancouver, like lower mainland. They’re like, our transit system sucks. They’re like, it’s not like Paris or London or New York. And I was like, you gotta remember, these cities are also very much older than us, still. Like we’re very young and we’re growing and these things were established for a long time. So sometimes it’s not fair to compare. Like I love walking London, love walking Paris, love walking New York. They’re great places to walk. 

[00:26:56] Lon LaClaire: Yeah. 

[00:26:56] Jennifer-Lee: But they also have a lot more land too in their city center. 

[00:27:00] Lon LaClaire: They do. In fact, Vancouver does extremely well on transit if you just look at the, at the facts, you know, at the statistics in terms of North America, which like is probably the more fair comparison. North American cities, uh, the only cities that beat out Vancouver in performance would be, um, New York, Washington DC, Montreal, and Toronto. And uh, like in terms of ridership per capita or even total number of trips on a train and stuff like that, those are the only cities that beat out this region, this metropolitan region. And uh, and as you say, they have a huge head start. When Vancouver was celebrating 100 years as a city, Montreal was celebrating 350. 

[00:27:46] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, they’re a little older. 

[00:27:49] Lon LaClaire: You know, it’s because of the way the continent was settled with colonization. It started in the east, right? And it took a long time to get west. And so they have a huge head start. And you look at the legacy systems in a city like New York, you know, hundreds of years of kind of like background. And here we’re relatively new to the game and yet still, you know, we just, uh, recently, uh, like, uh, just halfway through this pandemic period and kind of post, just overtook Chicago and Boston. You know, core transit and it just seems like, how is that possible? And we’re talking total ridership, like on the, the, the, the Chicago L, our SkyTrain moves more people. It’s, 

[00:28:30] Jennifer-Lee: Well, I didn’t expect that. 

[00:28:33] Lon LaClaire: Yeah, we, we had already passed, you know, San Francisco’s BART system, which is three times the size. Like, you know, just in terms of like kilometers, the, the kind of the coverage and the, the size of the trains. Uh, but we have more ridership in our kind of relatively small system compared to them. 

[00:28:51] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think a lot of things are changing too. Like I know a lot of younger people that, um, are like in their teens and they’re not getting their driver’s licenses and they’re not wanting to own a car. So I think, you know, we gotta evolve with that. Or they’re not gonna have a place to go ’cause they won’t even be able to rent an EVO because they won’t have a license. But you know, it’s really nice to see that our SkyTrain system is picking up in popularity. So is the West Coast Express, some of our longer haul buses. Because really this is so important for not just Vancouver, all the cities around it ’cause they are thriving, like Chilliwack, and I know that’s one of Mark’s big ambitions. Like I said, he really wants to make sure it’s transit accessible. He really wants to make sure there’s a ton of options. He bikes to work all the time. That’s what he likes to do. So it’s something that it’s really nice to see that it’s happen everywhere and as we continue to grow, and I know that SkyTrain is expanding, it’s expanding right out your window. Um, and then eventually, hopefully we’ll get to UBC. Hopefully we’ll get to Chilliwack. Hopefully we’ll get further into Surrey and Langley. But again, it takes time. We’re not that old. Uh, so, 

[00:30:01] Lon LaClaire: I’d likely say actually, that growing population of those that chose not to, chose not to own a car or even choose not to give a driver’s license, uh, they do wanna go to these places. You know, they do, uh, whether it’s for family or friends, where they wanna move there, you know, they, they like more and more that market is growing, you know, for the, yeah, the transit option. 

[00:30:23] Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I love that. And so there’s so many great places to live here in the lower mainland and more options are coming and that’s great. So thank you so much, Lon, for coming onto the podcast today. I feel like I could talk to you forever about transportation, but like I said, I’m a little nerdy about it, so I like, I know it’s a big part of how our cities operate and something that we don’t think about enough is transportation infrastructure. And I said, that’s not just transit, that’s everything. How are cars moving down a highway? Bikes, you know, more people bike than ever now because we do have options for longer haul. If you want an electric bike. Um, way products are moving are not just trucks, it’s being moved by, uh, people on bicycles. So it’s a really exciting time.

[00:31:08] Lon LaClaire: Yeah, it is. Well, thanks for having me. 

[00:31:11] Jennifer-Lee: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. 

[00:31:13] Thank you for joining us on Behind the Design, from Yaletown to Andmar. We’ve explored the history, innovation, and sustainability that makes Andmar more than just a community. It’s a place where life, business, and connection thrive. If you’ve been inspired by this podcast, we’d love your support, follow the podcast, rate it, and leave a review to help others discover what makes Andmar so special. Till next time.